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Quite the firestorm

Sunday August 15, 2010

The last couple of days have been quite an entertaining firestorm of press and blog-o-sphere commentary. Lots of questions were brought up that give me a bottomless supply of blog topics. I hope I have the common sense to not write on most of them :-)

But there are some topics I feel I should briefly say something about:

  • In Sun's early history, we didn't think much of patents. While there's a kernel of good sense in the reasoning for patents, the system itself has gotten goofy. Sun didn't file many patents initially. But then we got sued by IBM for violating the "RISC patent" - a patent that essentially said "if you make something simpler, it'll go faster". Seemed like a blindingly obvious notion that shouldn't have been patentable, but we got sued, and lost. The penalty was huge. Nearly put us out of business. We survived, but to help protect us from future suits we went on a patenting binge. Even though we had a basic distaste for patents, the game is what it is, and patents are essential in modern corporations, if only as a defensive measure. There was even an unofficial competition to see who could get the goofiest patent through the system. My entry wasn't nearly the goofiest.
  • Sun got a lot of heat for not going full open source early on (and there's a lot of disagreement over what "full open source" would mean... GPL? Apache?). But freedom is a funny concept. It's often a function of point of view: freedom for one could restrict the freedom of another. The freedom we were most concerned about was the freedom of software developers to run their applications on whatever OS or hardware they wanted. In opposition to that, the platform providers wanted the freedom to make their platforms as sticky as possible. Microsoft was the poster child for stickiness: they signed a contract saying that they'd support interoperability. Shortly thereafter they broke that promise by making it the case that if Java programs were developed on Windows, they wouldn't run anywhere else, so we took them to court and won. We were pretty careful about enforcing interoperability on desktops and servers. As an interesting aside, that commitment to interoperability is why Apple dislikes Java. Having OS X apps run on Linux or Windows doesn't make them happy. Apple wants to add your technological distinctiveness to their own.

    When it came to cellphones and JavaME, we weren't as able and successful at achieving interoperability. There were a lot of factors, but it all added up to pain for developers and a chilling of the software market. When Google came to us with their thoughts on cellphones, one of their core principles was making the platform free to handset providers. They had very weak notions of interoperability, which, given our history, we strongly objected to. Android has pretty much played out the way that we feared: there is enough fragmentation among Android handsets to significantly restrict the freedom of software developers.

  • Money was, of course, also an issue between Sun and Google. We wanted some compensation for the large amount we would be spending on engineering. Google did have a financial model that benefited themselves (that they weren't about to share). They were partly planning on revenue from advertising, but mostly they wanted to disrupt Apple's trajectory, and Apple's expected entry into advertising. If mobile devices take over as the computing platform for consumers, then Google's advertising channel, and the heart of its revenue, gets gutted. It doesn't take much of a crystal ball to see where Apple is going, and it's not a pretty picture for Google or anyone else.
  • Don't interpret any of my comments as support for Oracle's suit. There are no guiltless parties with white hats in this little drama. This skirmish isn't much about patents or principles or programming languages. The suit is far more about ego, money and power.
  • It's a sad comment on the morality of large modern software companies that Microsoft, while I don't think they've gotten any better since Sun sued them, probably has the high ground.
It's tough living in a world of Borg-wanna-be's.

Comments:

By suing Google, Oracle has tainted Java worse than British Petroleum poisoned the Gulf Coast. Thank you, James for java! And about Oracle... "With Oracle, everything is always about money. It is the only metric they know." I don't trust Oracle anymore.. :-( Good bye, java...

Posted by Alexander Tavrovsky on August 15, 2010 at 04:08 PM PDT #

I don't know why Google didn't pick Microsoft .NET Micro Framework for Android. Microsoft released the .NET MF as open-source under the Apache license and penned an open letter to the world claiming that they would not sue anyone that uses the technology-- with no caveats. It runs any language that will run on the .NET CLR (C#, VB.NET, IronPython, IronRuby, etc.)-- and will even run Silverlight. There are free tools available from Microsoft to develop for the .NET MF (Visual Studio 2010, with built-in Silverlight facility, etc.) They also give away the SDK that can be used to port it to any platform, and it should port to Linux with no problems at all. Just add the rest of the security and phone-specific code to special libraries, and there you go... At the end of the day, the Google/Android vs. Oracle lawsuit will probably go the same way as the Linux vs. SCO lawsuit. Just my $0.02 on the matter...

Posted by NYDB on August 15, 2010 at 04:23 PM PDT #

All that I can say is: Salute Sun, Salute. You were a noble in time of bastards. Sun, you are badly missed...

Posted by Hussein Baghdadi on August 15, 2010 at 04:31 PM PDT #

New really cool Oracle logo [type on URL]

Posted by New Funny Oracle Logo - Certified... on August 15, 2010 at 04:41 PM PDT #

It's pretty amusing that all the Google ads on the page are ads for companies and attorneys that help people get patents.

Posted by tzs on August 15, 2010 at 05:03 PM PDT #

Android fragmentation is a win for Google. Where there is dis-order people must search. An effectively curated world is the anti-google. An ingenious plan for sure.

Posted by David on August 15, 2010 at 06:01 PM PDT #

James, can you expand on why Android's fragmentation limits programmers' freedom? I'm an Android developer and I really don't see this at all. The code I write works without any changes on most Android handsets and it's certainly orders of magnitude than Java ME ever was.

Posted by Steve on August 15, 2010 at 06:24 PM PDT #

@David Maybe you're joking, but I think you might be oversimplifying the issues a bit: http://www.google.com/trends?q=iphone,+android

Posted by Angus on August 15, 2010 at 06:28 PM PDT #

So Apple is the new Borg. give me a break. Apple gave you shared libraries in Java. What about that. NeXT gave you all to copy, even that you couldn't do properly even with former NeXT developers writing AWT and Foundation classes. Even with buying Lighthouse, you couldn't ship it for Java. Every one hates Java on Desktop, so Apple wants it to behave like a Mac app. What Sun wasn't talented enough to accomplish that. Java lost fare and square to Obj-C and now you are crying. ha ha.

Posted by no on August 15, 2010 at 06:31 PM PDT #

no, This is not the way to talk with someone like James Gosling. Show him respect and forget for a second your Apple fanboy-sim.

Posted by Hussein Baghdadi on August 15, 2010 at 07:29 PM PDT #

I was at Sun back in 1987-88. They seem to have started thinking about patents a bit in 88. Sun was behind in graphics and still relying on 8-bit color-mapped displays as compared to SGI's 24-bit full color. We were going to try to squeeze more out of the 8-bit graphics board by dithering colors, which was a very sad thing to do compared with what was happening at SGI. I had come up with a little trick to generate an ordered dither matrix on the fly by xor-ing address bits. It saved a couple of gates on the graphics card over the more obvious approaches. Then someone came by and asked me if I thought the xor idea was patentable. I just told them I thought it would make for a pretty pathetic patent and they left. I might have stayed at Sun longer if the graphics were as interesting as the rest of the company. They just didn't have a strong visionary leader in that department and were wandering. I was sad to see Sun fall under the wheels of the Oracle bus.

Posted by Dan McCoy on August 15, 2010 at 07:52 PM PDT #

James, when you say: "This skirmish isn't much about patents or principles or programming languages. The suit is far more about ego, money and power." What is your primary thesis about why Oracle is suing Google? I am not clear from the piece, save for the equation that patents = money, usually more so than protecting innovation. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Mark

Posted by Mark Sigal on August 15, 2010 at 08:44 PM PDT #

@Hussain, Mind your business. Mr. Gosling is old enough to defend himself. Nothing in his post is correct about Apple. For example. Apple has the right to create a platform and not invite Mr. Gosling's love child. Nor let Google in to sell its ads in the iphone. I don't see Google allowing anyone in the google.com ad business. So why should Apple allow it. especially when important customer information is being stolen by google. Since When is Apple's ad network a threat to mankind when it is only going to live in the iPhone. You mean that is a direct threat to Google.

Posted by no on August 15, 2010 at 08:52 PM PDT #

The issue is not whether apple/oracle/ms are 'right'. doing stuff like building walled gardens and using software offensively..are just not nice.

Posted by lazylizard on August 15, 2010 at 10:09 PM PDT #

@Angus, who told everyone hates java on desktops. Java is better on desktops.

Posted by Prince on August 15, 2010 at 10:23 PM PDT #

Hey, Alexander, what a great idea. Why didn't Google pick .Net Micro for Android. Hmm, I can think of 3 reasons: 1) It sucks 2) It's Microsoft 3) Even Microsoft didn't choose it for Windows Phone 7. Says a lot when a Microsoft won't even eat their own dog food, huh?

Posted by Xenon on August 15, 2010 at 10:31 PM PDT #

In Oracle's hands, Java is doomed. I have to agree that Mono has a much brighter future than Java since last week. I love Java, but can't say the same about Oracle! It's unfortunate that MySQL and VirtualBox will share fate with Java - just like OpenSolaris.

Posted by Nikolay Kolev on August 15, 2010 at 10:45 PM PDT #

Me Im moving back to C++ and I will do more with Python and PHP. I would like to see Google Go to get more mature, Go its really Python with the power of C++ and garbage collected and with BSD license maybe even Google send it to ISO, Go looks promising but in the mean time my old friend C++. C++0x is getting closures and lambdas nice. Mr.Gosling many thanks for Java, it was a wonderful technology but nothing is forever thanks to the goofy people at Oracle.

Posted by Otengi Miloskov on August 15, 2010 at 11:06 PM PDT #

[Trackback] Oracle finally <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20013546-265.html">filed a patent lawsuit against Google</a>. Not a big surprise. During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation ...

Posted by soup.information-architects.de on August 15, 2010 at 11:48 PM PDT #

I was surprised by the choice of legal teams. David Boies for heaven's sakes. I hope you and the former JavaSoft people at Google and Oracle are not absorbed by the legal fray.

Posted by Jon K on August 16, 2010 at 12:17 AM PDT #

Hi monsieur james, please thrown in some T5440 at the back end, your pages now opens at snail pace...

Posted by new Color(1.0f, 1.0f, 1.0f, 0.5f); on August 16, 2010 at 01:23 AM PDT #

Hi monsieur james, please thrown in some T5440 at the back end, your pages now open at snail pace...

Posted by new Color(1.0f, 1.0f, 1.0f, 0.5f); on August 16, 2010 at 01:42 AM PDT #

I still hope that Oracle and Google can work this out fast. I believe Oracle reacted very well with the JVM update 21 issue which created a problem for the Eclipse community. I believe Google actually help Java the programming language to remain strong with GWT, AppEnine for Jav and Android.

Posted by Lars Vogel on August 16, 2010 at 01:56 AM PDT #

&quot;I don't know why Google didn't pick Microsoft .NET Micro Framework for Android.&quot; Because nobody in their right mind trusts Microsoft's promise not to sue. :) &quot;The code I write works without any changes on most Android handsets&quot; And Java ME code works without changes on any Symbian handsets and many non-Symbian handsets, from very weak to very powerful. Even on Android handsets, actually, thanks to some enterprising people who wrote a compatibility layer. &quot;Java is better on desktops.&quot; Not for the developer, it isn't. Most attempts I made to develop desktop Java apps failed miserably, while in the mobile and server departments it's always smooth sailing.

Posted by Felix Ple?oianu on August 16, 2010 at 02:03 AM PDT #

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)

Posted by Rob Dickens on August 16, 2010 at 02:13 AM PDT #

thank you for telling us this and we able to see from different prospective. But we all hope, an agreement can be come out from oracle,google side to address this revenue issue. if this can be solved, surely java will continue to prosperous. Or if we prefer continue like thist. you sue me, i sue them. this will be endless profit for lawyers

Posted by cometta on August 16, 2010 at 02:42 AM PDT #

I saw this coming at the time of the acquisition, I immediately took a break on Java and started working in C++ with smart pointers and all. Then it remained relatively quiet, confidence returned and I came back to Java, even downloaded Oracle's IDE. Now this is what they come up with? First big news, oh the language and architecture are ours, stuff it bigtime Oracle, you cannot claim a language, you need to use it, might as well reverse that, say hey I'm using Java in my app, why the hell are you claming it, you see, it's a two way street really. Of course I don't care about Google, what do they care about Android anyway, they have cloud software, you know , the search engine is cloud? Cloud will be my choice from now on I'm afraid, quite a pity, it gives corporations like the aforementioned all the power to BE EVIL!!

Posted by admin on August 16, 2010 at 02:55 AM PDT #

Seems we have an Apple Lawyer on the blog who is not interested to reveal his name. ''Java lost fare and square to Obj-C'' this made me laugh...

Posted by Ankit Garg on August 16, 2010 at 10:03 AM PDT #

microsoft cannot compete .net with java, while google will always use java to leverage their business, android is only the small chunk for their business, but it's impact beyond the imagination for marketing attraction, will oracle always defend java ? or they will shake their hand and ok, lets work together as long as you put the money on my bag

Posted by eko subagio on August 16, 2010 at 10:33 AM PDT #

Hey James. Your discourse presents a well reasoned argument for the issues of software development in the 21st century and how we get product to the mainstream. Thanks for your firestorm. The evidence of fragmentation of Android is here: Vodafone UK users of went apocalyptic when they thought that they upgrading HTC Heros to Android 2.1 only to receive branded applications. Vodafone eventually backed down. This was a carrier not a phone manufacturer. The battle of the future is a walled garden vs freedom 2 modify your device. Correct.

Posted by Peter Pilgrim on August 16, 2010 at 12:44 PM PDT #

The underlying problem here is that the rules of the current economic game favor evil (mostly in the form of cancerous growth). The degree of corporate liability for the evil is actually limited. Exxon has bought far more laws than Google has--so far. Whatever you think about Microsoft's software (and I think it reeks like the big dog's m0e), their economic model apparently works. For OSS, I think one answer is better economic models. One idea might be a kind of shared charity reverse auction pseudo-stock market. Ergo: http://eco-epistemology.blogspot.com/2009/11/economics-of-small-donors-reverse.html There's a lot of confusing because &quot;free&quot; is so badly overloaded in English. The important sense of free involves meaningful, significant, and unconstrained choice. Anti-trust is NOT a penalty for success. However, improved laws should insist that overly successful companies reproduce--by dividing and competing against themselves.

Posted by Shannon Jacobs on August 16, 2010 at 01:02 PM PDT #

I'd be interested in hearing answers to the issues no posted. What happened to the Lighthouse desktop apps? Why did their conversion to Java fail?

Posted by Jon H on August 16, 2010 at 01:31 PM PDT #

This is getting more bad I think (Someone commented on Charles Nutter blog a friend that work for Oracle said) &quot;Larry Ellison does not give a sh*t about Java developers and the Java community.He just cash cow Java in the short term and control competition&quot;. What a bizarre world, I dont want to live anymore with that. If apple was getting super Villain, Oracle and Larry are worst than Apple or Microsoft. Im so pissed to see how Java is falling and the sun already set off.

Posted by Otengi Miloskov on August 16, 2010 at 03:08 PM PDT #

I think &quot;platform neutrality&quot; is an important regulatory objective, it should be considered a citizen's right when it comes to egovernment services. In general we need ways to get less patents in software standards and more interoperability.

Posted by kurt on August 16, 2010 at 03:33 PM PDT #

@Jon H, @no: As a former Sun guy myself, I too am disappointed that more didn't come of the Lighthouse acquisition. However, you do have to remember the context. It was just after the mid 90s and there was an opportunity to enter/win the server side app development approach. Sun was better positioned to do that and it was probably much more lucrative than building out Java desktop applications. I think Sun made the right decision and got a lot of mileage for SUNW on Solaris/servers/JavaEE. More so than building a better mail client or presentation tool for sure.

Posted by Matt Ingenthron on August 16, 2010 at 04:10 PM PDT #

@Shannon Jacobs: Well said. As someone who appreciates and understands the benefits of &quot;walled gardens,&quot; protecting your IP, patents (as they are intended, not what they have come to be) AS WELL AS Open Source, the issue should always be sustainable economic models. If Sun is the only entity that could have provided proper stewardship of Java, don't be pissed at Oracle because Sun failed as a business. The bloody fight ahead may be ugly, but the slow, mismanaged collapse of Sun is just sad.

Posted by Tim F. on August 16, 2010 at 05:36 PM PDT #

I think it's quite hard to stop fragmentation on mobile without stopping innovation. Mobile phones differ radically in speed, screen, memory, bandwidth, input-method, and so on, to produce a single app that runs everywhere well is a tall order, even if the APIs were identical. J2ME was a nice try, but the profiles themselves created fragmentation. Android devices are fragmented in a smaller way by contrast, first, the bar for performance minimum and OS features are set way higher. Secondly, there's no profiles.

Posted by Ray Cromwell on August 16, 2010 at 05:49 PM PDT #

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